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Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold – Meb Faber Analysis

Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold


Visitors: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer are mining executives that constructed Goldcorp right into a $50 billion enterprise. Ian is the previous Chairman of Goldcorp and Frank was a co-founder & Director of Goldcorp. Frank later based Lionsgate leisure.

Date Recorded: 7/12/2022     |     Run-Time: 52:36

Abstract: In right now’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of essentially the most knowledgable within the house. The blokes talk about why the arrange right now mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold when on an enormous bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out in the course of the 1970’s and why they’re so bullish on gold right now that they began one other mining firm, Aris.

Feedback or ideas? Eager about sponsoring an episode? E-mail us [email protected]

Hyperlinks from the Episode:

  • 0:38 – Intro
  • 1:23 – Welcome to our visitors, Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer
  • 2:12 – The primary olive oil on the planet Domenica Fiore
  • 3:14 – Frank & Ian’s connection within the gold house with Goldcorp
  • 6:48 – How to consider gold right now
  • 13:44 – The genesis of their new mission, Aris
  • 16:31 – Ian’s philosophy for M&A
  • 26:34 – Is Gold’s sideways consolidation a very good alternative for patrons?
  • 32:24 – International Asset Allocation
  • 37:58 – Twitter Ballot: How many individuals say they personal gold or miners?
  • 39:18 – Issues they’re desirous about as they give the impression of being out to the horizon
  • 45:12 – Their most memorable investments
  • 49:07 – Be taught extra about Frank and Ian: @Frank_Giustra



Meb: Welcome to “The Meb Faber Present,” the place the main focus is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be part of us as we talk about the craft of investing, and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that will help you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.

Disclaimer: Meb Faber is the co-founder and the chief funding officer of Cambria Funding Administration. On account of trade laws, he won’t talk about any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast contributors are solely their very own opinions and don’t mirror the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra data, go to

Meb: What’s up, my mates. We now have a tremendous present for you right now. Our visitors are Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer, two profitable mining executives that constructed Goldcorp to a $50 billion firm. Enjoyable truth, Frank additionally began Lionsgate Leisure. In right now’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of essentially the most educated and profitable operators and executives within the house. The blokes talk about why the macro set-up right now mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold went on an enormous bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out in the course of the Nineteen Seventies and why they’re so bullish on gold right now. They obtained the band again collectively and so they began in one other mining firm, Aris Gold. Please get pleasure from this episode with Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer.

Meb: Frank and Ian, welcome to the present.

Frank: Thanks.

Ian: Thanks.

Meb: I used to be simply remarking, it is a fashionable Zoom. So, fellas, inform us the place you’re positioned right now. I’m in Los Angeles. Frank, the place are you?

Frank: I’m in France.

Meb: And Ian?

Ian: I’m in Ontario, about two hours north of Toronto.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, guys, we’re going to speak about all issues gold, macro, mining. However earlier than we begin, I obtained a query for Frank as a result of I’ve a package deal within the mail. It’s not right here but, so I can’t do a reside style take a look at, however I obtained some olive oil coming to my home out of your farm or out of your manufacturing firm. Give me a bit preview. What do I’ve to look ahead to? What kind of makes use of? Is that this salad form of olive oil? Is that this cooking olive oil? Give us a bit background.

Ian: Nicely, thanks for the free industrial. It’s referred to as Domenica Fiore, it’s named after my mom. I began making it about 12 years in the past or so, and it’s made in Italy in a spot referred to as Orvieto in Umbria. It’s rated the primary olive oil on the planet. And that’s not me saying that, that’s all these worldwide judges at nearly each competitors on the planet. Don’t use it for cooking. Please don’t use my oil for cooking. It’s far too precious. We name it ending oil, so use it for salads, dipping your bread, ending meats, pasta, soups, no matter. It’s ending oil. It’s beautiful.

Meb: I feel I obtained the sampler. Do you might have a favourite? I’m going to carry you to the fireplace.

Frank: The favourite is what we name the Novello Di Notte, which implies it’s new oil made at nighttime. We’re the one producer on the planet that harvest our oil very early within the season when it’s nonetheless actually sizzling in Italy. And we harvest in the course of the night time, and it makes a world of distinction. Simply an unbelievable oil, and it’s a really distinctive, very restricted version, Novello Di Notte.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, I look ahead to it. Let’s begin speaking about all issues mining and gold. You guys have labored collectively previously, sort of bringing the band again collectively. So, Ian, I feel I’ll direct this one to you. Give us a bit origin story. You guys, what you’ve been as much as, after which we will get into what you guys are doing now.

Ian: As you mentioned, Frank and I am going again fairly a methods within the gold enterprise with the beginning up of Wheaton River 20-plus years in the past. And our imaginative and prescient then was to construct a brand new main gold mining firm. Though lots of people begin off with that imaginative and prescient, we truly have been capable of accomplish it. We have been excited concerning the timing, and we have been excited concerning the alternative, and we have been very proud of the way it all unfolded.

Meb: For the listeners who aren’t as acquainted, so my non-Canadian Australians, give us a bit background. They could have heard the title Wheaton River, however what does that imply? Inform us only a actual fast overview of what that was.

Ian: Positive. Nicely, in 2000, Frank and I made a decision we must always attempt to construct a serious gold mining firm. And as we regarded round for alternatives, we discovered this firm referred to as Wheaton River Minerals, and so they had run out of ore, and so they had a bit bit of money, and so they’d run out of concepts. And so Frank and I took over the board of administrators, put a bit of our personal cash in, after which very aggressively went out and began buying property to construct a gold mining firm. And over the subsequent seven years, I assume we purchased about 9 gold mines. And the market cap went from $20 million CAD to its…at its top, it obtained to $50 billion USD. It was an ideal expertise, and the market was enthusiastic about it, and so they have been very blissful that we have been there to create one other automobile for the traders. That was mainly the story.

Frank: Nicely, most traders would acknowledge the corporate as Goldcorp. It modified, and as we did certainly one of our reverse takeovers was with an organization referred to as Goldcorp, which was already current. We renamed Wheaton River Goldcorp again in 2003 or ’04. And so in the event you have been to look it up, it was Goldcorp.

Meb: What was actually the principle worth driver? As a result of, I imply, that’s fairly dramatic…getting as much as a $50 billion market cap will not be chump change and that’s not a straightforward activity.

Ian: There was a pair, one was the value of gold. Our timing turned out to be completely impeccable. Once we began on the journey, the gold worth was about $250. After which over the subsequent s7 or 8years, it obtained as much as nearly $2000. In order that, clearly, we had the wind at our again. However secondly, we have been essentially the most aggressive, form of, agglomerator within the enterprise, and the market liked that. And so we stored buying property, a bit bit like personal fairness, besides we used fairness, we didn’t use a lot debt. So, placing the 2 collectively, the gold worth and the velocity at which we have been performing, that’s what actually created all the worth.

Frank: And we purchased some nice property to start with. And going again to what Ian was saying, at the start, when nobody believed within the gold worth, there have been only a few of us. Truly, I wrote a thesis again in 2001 about what I anticipated gold to do subsequent. And at the moment, after I got here up with that publication, only a few individuals believed it. So once we have been on the market shopping for property, we have been shopping for extremely good property when fewer individuals wished them. And so it was…the thought was we chosen actually nice property and we obtained them early on and that gave us an enormous leg up over everybody else that got here in later as a gold worth began to maneuver.

Meb: So, right here we’re, quick ahead. It’s now 2022, and we’ve finished a couple of podcasts on gold and mining, however lots on pure assets, specifically, farming usually, gold sitting someplace in that $1,700 zone. That is mid July. Frank, possibly give us a bit framework for a way to consider gold. We did a Twitter ballot the opposite day, or a couple of months in the past, once we requested traders, “Do you might have any publicity to actual property?” And so, that means simply all commodities, even REITs, TIPs, and most traders don’t, or in the event that they do, they’ve little or no in a world of regardless of the inflation is right now. That appears unwise, however give us possibly a bit macro consideration about gold usually. The place do you suppose we’re? The case for it, all that good things.

Frank: I feel that the sentiment will not be that dissimilar to 2001. We now have only a few individuals right now that imagine within the gold worth. They see it caught in a spread between form of $1,700 and $2,000, and never going wherever, they’ve watched all of the cryptocurrencies undergo the roof, and the tech shares undergo the roof, and the beginnings of an inflationary interval, and the truth that gold hasn’t moved. And I feel that sentiment is all the pieces in markets, and I feel it’s similar to how individuals felt again then. And the half that you must deal with is, who’re the true gold patrons in right now’s market? And there are a number of tendencies that it’s important to watch. And I’ve been writing about gold for over 20 years. I watch it very carefully, I write lots about macro tendencies and what’s occurring within the international financial system.

And it’s important to simply take note of a few details. To begin with, bodily gold is transferring from West to East. So China, India, clearly, the 2 largest patrons of gold persistently shopping for gold over the many years and including to their reserves, particularly China. Russia, additionally. And whereas the west has been centered on paper gold, once they have any curiosity in gold, it’s simply paper gold, which isn’t actual gold, by the way in which. If you happen to suppose you’re shopping for actual gold, once you purchase gold ETFs, you’re badly mistaken. So the bodily stuff is transferring from West to East. And I feel that that’s one factor it’s important to pay a whole lot of consideration to. Central banks…since 2010, central banks all over the world have been on a gold-buying binge. They proceed so as to add to the gold reserves. Their U.S. greenback publicity is slowly taking place by way of their reserves, and their gold goes up. In order that they see the writing on the wall.

I feel in the event you have been China right now, with the way in which they have a look at making long-term choices, they’ve very long-term plans. They’ve been including to their gold reserves, and they’ll proceed so as to add to their gold reserves, and for them to see the gold worth staying the place it’s, is completely superb. I don’t suppose they’re having any bother with that. The U.S., alternatively, the Fed and others, different policymakers disparage gold. They don’t need you to personal gold. They name it a barbaric relic, it’s not a foreign money. Nicely, the truth is, it’s a foreign money, and each central financial institution on the planet is aware of it’s a foreign money. So I simply watch what individuals do versus what they are saying. And people are the 2 main issues it’s important to watch. So I feel that we’re heading in direction of some form of international financial system reset. What that’s going to seem like, who is aware of? It may play out some ways.

I wrote an article on this final week and I speculated that maybe it may go within the path of {a partially} backed gold foreign money use for settlement functions by international locations that need to keep away from being sanctioned or expelled from the SWIFT system, U.S. SWIFT system. And so I feel that there’s a very good probability that gold may play a task in regardless of the financial system reset is, just because all of the central banks already personal it, they’re buying increasingly of it yearly. The assumption system in fiat currencies is falling aside, and it’s falling aside all over the place. If you happen to have a look at what they’ve finished, not simply with the greenback, however the euro and the yuan, they’re destroying these currencies by printing trillions and trillions of these things. I feel since 2006, central financial institution reserves within the 5 main central banks have gone up 500%. They’re simply creating cash out of skinny air. And finally, you possibly can’t play that sport endlessly. And that’s why I feel the good cash, the long-term cash has gold publicity, and particularly the central banks.

Meb: Once we have a look at it, I feel gold not performing recently is a little bit of a shock to lots of people we discuss to. And we are saying there’s sort of two large quant elements that basically are constructive for gold, one being unfavorable actual rates of interest, which we actually have, and the opposite being an inverted yield curve, which we’ve. And so, as we glance out within the horizon, let’s say we do that one other 12 months, two, or three, and we are saying, “Okay, effectively, gold actually began to bull.” If you happen to may guess, and that is extra of a contented hour/espresso query, so…however what kind of catalyst…Is there one thing that you’d say is your most definitely guess as to what…is it a bear market? Is it extra crypto fraud? Is it some form of geopolitical one thing? What do you suppose will trigger this to really shift into bull mode?

Frank: I feel all of these issues that you simply simply talked about will play a task, however I feel the largest, to me, will probably be when the Fed blanks once more. And going again to pre-2008, I began writing about what the Fed would do after the disaster of 2008, they did precisely that. They took charges to zero, printed some huge cash. Then Bernanke got here out and mentioned, “Nicely, you understand, no downside. We are able to normalize charges and we will unwind the steadiness sheet.” And I referred to as BS on that in a number of articles. After which as they began to boost charges, I mentioned, “They’re going to solely get them to this point, after which they may pause, clean, and reverse.” And I mentioned that in 2016 and 2017, and that’s precisely what occurred two years later. And I’m telling you, as we converse, my view of it’s that there’s all this discuss normalizing charges proper now as a result of inflation is so excessive and so they should get it beneath management, however they’ll’t. Mathematically, it’s unimaginable.

Anyone with a easy calculator will let you know that there’s a lot debt within the system, authorities, company, private debt is globally at $300 trillion, they’ll’t normalize charges. And so they know that, okay? So all this discuss these aggressive hikes, the way it’s going to get this beneath management, I believe by this fall…we’ll see, however my finest guess is by someday this fall, they may clean, and they’ll pause, after which they’ll reverse. And we’re going to return to zero finally. If the market continues to implode or we fall right into a deep recession, there’s one other geopolitical occasion, no matter it’s, they’ll discover an excuse for it. Final time was a pandemic. They’ll discover an excuse for it, and they’ll pause. That’s, to me, going to be the catalyst that units the gold worth on fireplace as a result of I might suppose by then, persons are going to comprehend that they’re in an inescapable lure. They can’t normalize charges. It’s mathematically unimaginable.

Meb: Let’s begin to take a bit stroll ahead to what y’all’s new concepts? What was the genesis of this concept? And provides us an summary of what you guys are banding up for now.

Frank: As Ian talked about, no, we obtained collectively…and I bear in mind I used to run an funding financial institution again within the ’90s, and Ian was certainly one of my large shoppers within the mining sector. And I bear in mind the day I resigned from the agency, I wished to step away from the trade and do one thing else. So I simply walked away. However I nonetheless had lunch booked with Ian. We went to lunch anyway, and I mentioned, “Ian, you understand what? I don’t know what I’m going to do subsequent. But when I ever come again to the mining trade…” that is again in 1996. I mentioned, “If I ever come again within the mining trade, you’ll be my first name.” Scroll ahead 5 years later, I believed…I got here up with the concept we would have liked to do one thing. I wasn’t fairly positive what, however I had my thesis on gold, and after I wished to create one thing, my first name was Ian. And we obtained collectively and we created Wheaton River, which finally grew to become two corporations. So Wheaton River, which grew to become Goldcorp, and the spinoff, which was Silver Wheaton, the dear metals streaming firm, which is Wheaton Valuable Metals right now, which I feel has a few $23 billion market cap. That was Ian’s genius of that spinoff, in order that was an unbelievable success.

Then in 2009, proper after the disaster and the printing of cash began to happen, we created Endeavor Mining, which I did with a fellow named Neil Woodyer, who was certainly one of our authentic board members on Wheaton River, by the way in which. And we created a mining firm with mines in West Africa. Through the years, we constructed it as much as about 5 totally different mines in 4 totally different international locations, and it went as much as a few $3 billion, $4 billion market cap. Then in 2016, we did one other one, once more with Neil, this time in Latin America, that was Leagold. That was merged with Equinox, one other $2 billion or $3 billion firm. And once we offered Lea to Equinox, I knew…this was on the time when the Fed blanked again in 2019, and so they began to reverse course. I mentioned, “Okay, we’re going to be in for an actual gold market this time.” And this time they will be unable to tug it again.

And that is after I approached Ian and Neil once more. So now this time, it’s Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, myself, and several other others which have been within the gold mining enterprise for an extended, very long time, and we determined to create Aris. And Aris is the present firm with two initiatives, two very giant initiatives. And once more, it’s the beginnings of one thing. And the thought isn’t any totally different than all the pieces else we’ve finished previously. It’s a buy-and-build technique. So, meaning utilizing our experience in M&A, and our experience with elevating cash within the capital markets, and our administration experience to know what property to purchase, what to pay for them, easy methods to repair them if they’ve an issue, easy methods to maximize worth. That’s the Aris story, which I’m a particular advisor to, Ian’s chairman, and Neil is CEO.

Meb: So Ian, how do you discover these particular property to purchase? Presumably, they’re not simply sitting on the market on a platter someplace. What’s the method, and the way do you guys sort of go about it? And inform us all of your secrets and techniques.

Ian: Nicely, as Frank says, the corporate is loaded with individuals which have been within the trade for a very long time. So we’re conscious of a whole lot of what’s occurring on the market, we’ve information of a whole lot of the property, we’ve information of who is likely to be considering exiting the enterprise, and we’ve a whole lot of expertise as to easy methods to run these extra effectively. However to get again to your query, giant, good, gold ore our bodies are very uncommon. They’re very uncommon. And Frank and I, we acknowledged that 20 years in the past. Nicely, they’re rarer now. And so, looking for them is a problem, and discovering them is a matter, and competitors for them is all the time round.

So it’s important to be artistic, it’s important to take some dangers. And to this point, we’ve been very enthusiastic about what we’ve been capable of do with Aris. Our ambitions are giant. The market has indicated over, and over, and over once more, they need some giant corporations to put money into on the market. And at any time when a Goldcorp disappears into Newmont, effectively, that creates a vacuum for another person. And in order that’s form of the impetus for us. And as I say, we’ve finished a few issues to this point, however we’re very formidable and we’re very aggressive. And historical past tells us that the market will reward us for that.

Meb: The place have you ever guys began discovering properties already? Are these in Canada, U.S., Africa, Latin America? The place are you guys discovering alternative?

Ian: Nicely, to this point it’s been Latin America, and it’s been Columbia. So we’ve obtained two operations…one operation down there, and one other mega mission to be constructed over the subsequent three years, however we’re alternatives in different international locations as effectively.

Meb: As we discuss concerning the gold miners usually, would love to listen to a bit perception from you guys as a result of there’s in all probability…in the event you have been to ask me, there’s in all probability no different sub-sector or trade in my thoughts the place administration is extra vital than in y’all’s world. And I really like the phrase “success leaves traces.” And so, gold mining as a sector, the shares haven’t been doing a complete lot for some time, however what are a few of the vital drivers that the market, on a safety stage, actually appears to be like for? Is it merely manufacturing multiples? Is it stability? Is it…? Simply discuss to us a bit bit about if we have been to do that in 2, 3 years and we mentioned, “Hey, you guys have 10X, 50Xed this firm,” and we glance again, like, what can be the sort of large drivers within the mining sector for you guys?

Frank: I feel…Hear, it’s a mixture of issues, and I’m positive Ian will add to what I’m going to say, however administration, actually vital, particularly within the method that we take, okay? Administration is paramount as a result of it’s all about expertise, experience, and information. Mining, as you understand, is a really tough trade. It’s important to not solely fear concerning the geology and capital markets, we’ve to fret concerning the safety, it’s important to fear about politics, and all kinds of trade charges, 1,000,000 various things. And in the event you haven’t finished it earlier than, you’re going to…sure to run into surprises. So, expertise is all the pieces. For my part, and Ian in all probability can add much more to this, is there are solely a handful of individuals on this world. It’s not an enormous trade per se. It’s not like, say, the tech trade or different industries. It is a very small trade the place the profitable ones, you possibly can rely ’em nearly in a single hand, possibly two. To me, administration is all the pieces.

And I feel we’ve assembled…once you have a look at guys like Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, and we’ve Peter Marrone on the board, David Garofalo, Serafino Iacono. We now have all these folks that have finished all of it earlier than in their very own proper and have come collectively to do it collectively. Everyone brings a complete load of expertise to the desk. And that, to me, that’s what permits me to sleep effectively is realizing that the corporate’s in good fingers. Everyone knows what we’re doing, everyone knows what our price is in creating this factor. So, Ian, do you might have something so as to add to that? I imply, that’s the way in which I see it.

Ian: I completely agree with that. And the opposite factor I feel Frank and I understood again once we began with Wheaton River, and we perceive now, we all know how uncommon good ore our bodies are, and we’re not afraid to exit and pay as much as get them. And I feel there are too many individuals within the gold trade on the lookout for a deal or on the lookout for a discount. We’re by no means on the lookout for a deal or a discount, we’re on the lookout for high quality, and I’m on the lookout for amount. I feel individuals underestimate how a lot measurement issues within the gold mining enterprise. And if you wish to get the eye of institutional traders, you higher present them you’re on a path to develop to be a major producer. And so Frank and I each perceive that. And once more, our expertise with Wheaton River, we went out for main property and needed to do main financings, however we had main success. And so we’ll be doing the identical factor again and again right here, however measurement is vital.

Frank: That’s a very good level. On that word, so the 2 initiatives that we presently have in Aris, our possession that’s to our accounts already get about 10 million ounces of gold that’s within the floor that must be extracted. That’s a whole lot of ounces of gold as a starter package, per se. Okay. So, and the grade is sweet, it’s nice grade, and it’s 10 million ounces that we hope to mine for our account. The target, and once you say, once we look again, let’s say 3, 4, 5 years from now, what’s the target? The place are we going? We have to create an organization that produces at the very least 1,000,000 ounces a 12 months of gold. That may put you within the ranks of an vital gold producer on the planet the place the establishments should personal you, you’re within the indexes, you’re in ETFs.

And that, once more, we’ve finished that a number of instances and we’re effectively on our option to assembling the items, as we converse, to get us to that million ounces a 12 months of manufacturing, the place you’re producing nice money stream as a result of your value of manufacturing is affordable. And that, once more, we’ve that in each of the operations. We all know that the numbers work in that regard. So in the event you get 2 million ounces, and you’ve got nice revenue margins, after which the third half is you get right into a gold market, then that’s the place you get your Wheaton River kind story that goes from tens of millions to billions in a short time.

Meb: Satan’s advocate problem for you guys, somebody who’s been there and been large, after which now doing a youthful enterprise, once you go to talk with a mission to be a purchaser, how laborious is it? I imply, in a world you talked about earlier of low-interest charges and sort of accommodative situations and simpler cash, how laborious is it to barter with a mission when you might have possibly somebody who’s a lot greater additionally on the lookout for related initiatives? Do they worth you guys out? I really feel like that is nearly like a VC pitching a startup. How can you persuade a few of these initiatives? Is it actually sharp elbows or is it not a lot? Give me an summary of how deal cycle transactions go about or shut.

Frank: I is likely to be gifting away commerce secrets and techniques, however each state of affairs is totally different, okay? And so all I can say is let’s have a look at the final one we simply did, our most up-to-date acquisition, okay? We have been uniquely positioned…in that situation, we have been uniquely positioned to be the appropriate purchaser for that asset to make it occur due to our nation expertise in that particular nation. And so, had one other firm are available in like a bigger, say, Newmont, no matter, they wouldn’t have had the identical native capacity to work with communities, work with authorities, to make issues occur in that nation. They wouldn’t have had the identical information as our administration group did. So in each situation, we don’t go into bidding processes. There’s an asset that goes up on the market, and it’s going by means of a course of by means of funding banks, we keep away from that. Ian and I hate that as a result of that’s not the sport we play. We discover very particular property that nobody else can get their head round why or the way you’re going to get it, and we do these as a substitute. I don’t suppose we’ve ever been in a course of, have we, Ian, the place we have been shopping for one thing on another person?

Ian: No, no. We…

Frank: It’s not our sport.

Ian: We have been in a few bidding conditions at Wheaton River, however typically, we didn’t know we have been bidding towards another person. We have been dealing immediately with the vendor and we put up our supply, after which afterwards, we came upon we outbid someone by a penny, however we had no thought. However yeah, we don’t search for these conditions in any respect. The opposite factor that occurs is due to our expertise and our observe file, once we say we’ll elevate cash, we elevate it. Once we say we’ll shut, we shut. We get a whole lot of alternatives due to that. Individuals know that we’re severe, and if we agree on one thing, it’s going to occur. And that’s meant that we get calls greater than most individuals about property which may be accessible as a result of individuals know they’ll take care of it.

The opposite factor, we’re extremely good at holding issues quiet. And that, once more, individuals recognize that, that they’ll take care of us, and one of many corporations that Wheaton purchased was Glamis. That was an $8 billion acquisition again at that cut-off date. And everybody was watching the gold house as rigorously as they do, all of the analysts, all of the funding bankers. Nobody had a clue till we introduced it. After which once we did the takeover of Placer with Barrick, once more, big Canadian mining occasion, not a whisper available in the market till it was introduced. So we’re very happy with these issues that we’d ship, and we will preserve a secret.

Meb: One of many challenges, but in addition alternatives by means of pure useful resource corporations is the cycle. There’s growth instances, there’s darkish instances, there’s in-between instances. And sort of it appears, and also you guys can illuminate me extra as a result of I’m not as in contact with this, however gold and the miners have sort of been oscillating form of sideways. Is that this a form of opportunistic, wealthy atmosphere? Like, are there a whole lot of distressed properties or individuals trying to promote mines, or what’s the overview of form of the mining sector for a possible purchaser or vendor right now?

Frank: I wouldn’t say that it’s a distressed atmosphere. I’ll simply say it shortly right here, after which Ian can chime in, however I wouldn’t say it’s a distressed atmosphere by any means. I might extra classify it as a disinterest atmosphere. It’s very quiet, very inactive. The folks that personal property are sitting on them, there’s not a whole lot of capital funding moving into by those that personal. Once more, it jogs my memory of some 20 years in the past when it simply looks like nobody cares for the time being, which for us is nice.

Ian: Yeah. No, I’d agree with that. It’s a disinterested market. And the opposite factor about gold shares, the one folks that personal gold shares are folks that suppose the value goes to go up. Nobody buys a gold inventory for the dividend, and even for a retailer of worth. They purchase gold shares as a result of they suppose the value of gold goes to go up, and subsequently the inventory will go up. And so, even when the value of gold is down, and there’s no pleasure concerning the fairness markets, they’re nonetheless by no means low cost. They’re by no means low cost. They’re absolutely priced to right now’s gold worth. And so, it’s important to actually have conviction both that it’s going to get greater or conviction that the value of gold is definitely going to go up, to get in there and do a deal.

And that’s why, in my opinion, you see so most of the mid-tier producers that simply form of doddle alongside decade after decade and don’t do a lot, their inventory doesn’t do a lot, nobody’s enthusiastic about it as a result of I’d say they don’t have conviction about what they may purchase or what the value will do. And in order that’s the place we’re a bit bit totally different. However there’s by no means bargains within the gold enterprise ever, ever, ever. Frank and I haven’t discovered one but.

Frank: Not but.

Meb: Jogs my memory of native actual property right here in Los Angeles.

Ian: Yeah.

Meb: I’m an inexpensive bastard, and so on the lookout for bargains in actual property close to the surf breaks has been an train in futility. So, we obtained a whole lot of each institutional and particular person traders that take heed to this present. Discuss to us a bit bit about how to consider placing cash to work within the miners. Was it one thing the place like, “Hey, simply go purchase an ETF and be finished with it,” or in the event you’re truly going to get into the inventory choice, what must you keep away from? What must you search for once you’re sort of beginning to choose some safety choice names on this? Lots of people can get burned with inventory choice in any sector, however gold mining was one which I really feel like is fraught with locations to keep away from. Give us a bit steering for these trying to deploy some money right here.

Frank: I’ll go first right here. I feel it’s important to begin along with your macro view of your portfolio. I imagine that, at first, it’s important to be diversified. So, meaning not placing all of your eggs in a single sector. Your mining portfolio goes to be a part of your total portfolio. Inside that…By the way in which, I additionally imagine we’re in a tough asset atmosphere proper now the place your total portfolio ought to be skewed in direction of laborious property, which clearly means mining corporations. And never simply gold corporations, mining corporations usually. That is the way in which I do it. Then I have a look at my mining sector portfolio and I feel, “Nicely, what’s in there?” Nicely, clearly you’re not going to place all the pieces into danger property, you understand? That’s dumb. So that you’re going to purchase…there’s some unbelievable alternatives proper now with the big worldwide miners. The Rio Tintos, the DHVs, the Valleys, the Anglos, the dividends that they’re paying at present metallic costs are 10%, 12%, 13%, 14% dividends.

And in the event you imagine, as I imagine, that we’re in a multiyear cycle proper now, the place inflation will preserve these metallic costs elevated, then it’s important to personal these. That’s your much less dangerous facet of the portfolio. You then all the time have some cash for…if you wish to take the chance, you’ll have a look at corporations like ours and say, “Okay, I need to purchase a progress firm.” With progress and ambition comes danger. So it’s important to weigh that too, however that may be a portion of your portfolio. I all the time say that in these eventualities, you higher be good at inventory selecting or be getting nice recommendation from folks that know what they’re doing as a result of this trade’s simply full of heaps and plenty of individuals with large concepts and really low capacity to ship. And so there’s heaps and plenty of these on the market telling nice tales that don’t truly ever ship however inform nice tales. And so it’s important to be very cautious. And so it’s all about administration, and you actually should do your homework once you come to this finish of the chance portion of your portfolio.

Ian: Nicely, the one factor I might additionally touch upon, although, is you have a look at the observe file of the administration groups. As a result of what you do discover within the mining enterprise is identical individuals appear to have success over, and over, and over once more. And so in the event you’re investing with a bunch of individuals, have a look at folks that have finished it earlier than and it’s labored out effectively. As a result of have a look at, all these investments are powerful, all these mining operations are troublesome, however sure individuals simply follow it, and push laborious, and get it finished. And so along with, as Frank says, various your portfolio, and looking out on the property, and looking out on the political danger, and looking out on the geological danger, put some huge cash on administration.

Meb: It simply jogged my memory, so I simply posted a tweet actual fast, as a result of I like to ballot my viewers for sentiment and all kinds of issues, and it’s a very good point-in-time indicator on all kinds of not simply market historical past, however how are you allotted? What are you doing? And the outcomes are sometimes stunning, and considerably miserable. We requested a few highlights the place we ask individuals, what was the largest after-inflation drawdown in bonds that they thought occurred in historical past? And most of the people thought it was 5%, 10%, and the reply to that’s effectively over 50%, and different questions like that, however we’ll have to attend about 10 minutes for the outcomes to return in, however I did a do you personal gold or gold miners portfolio? So we’ll see what proportion comes out of my viewers.

Nevertheless it’s humorous as a result of we did a ebook referred to as “International Asset Allocation” the place we checked out a whole lot of conventional asset allocation methods, and so long as you personal sort of all the principle classes, you are likely to do okay, however at one explicit atmosphere actually stood out, and that was the Nineteen Seventies. And also you guys obtained a bit gray hair. You could be extra conversant in the ’70s, however many individuals investing right now haven’t invested throughout that atmosphere. It’s been a declining rate of interest, decrease inflation atmosphere, and never lots helped within the ’70s. You personal a whole lot of conventional stuff, you bought taken sort of to the woodshed, however gold, clearly, was one of many large standouts. Worth shares sort of helped higher than the alternative, nevertheless it looks like you might have these cycles in historical past the place by the point that everybody has forgotten what kind of atmosphere…they’ve solely invested throughout a sure interval, it predisposes them to an atmosphere that didn’t exist. I don’t actually have any query, however do you might have any remark?

Frank: I feel I do know the place you’re going with this. And that is certainly one of my favourite talks, is that this era, those with the black hair such as you guys, weren’t round within the ’70s. I began on this trade in ’78, Ian a couple of years earlier than me. And…

Ian: Thanks.

Frank: …we all know what it was like. And I’ll let you know what occurred. Nicely, individuals overlook about bear markets, which this era has by no means, ever, ever seen a bear market. I don’t know in the event you bear in mind the Nifty Fifties, the high-flying shares of the Nineteen Sixties. Nicely, that every one resulted in 1969. Truly, the height was 1966. 1969, it got here down actual laborious, and it didn’t hit the outdated excessive till 1982. Okay? So that you had a 13-year bear market the place issues went like this, simply sideways. And also you had a number of recessions in there. The one issues that went effectively have been gold, oil, actual property, farmland, all that stuff.

And other people overlook that we’ve been accustomed, we’ve been conditioned to imagine that you simply purchase on the dips, that the Fed’s going to return to the rescue, all of those silly issues that work for lengthy intervals of time till they don’t work anymore. The 1929 crash, these shares by no means hit their highs once more till 1952, there have been a whole lot of nice rallies in between however overlook concerning the outdated highs. And other people don’t perceive that when a bear market actually units in, and the situations change, the complete atmosphere has modified. Now you’ve had this big debt bubble that has grown over the many years. You’ve had this straightforward cash coverage, which has spoiled everybody to loss of life. Everybody’s had on line casino fever now for…for the reason that pandemic began. It’s all coming to an finish. This sport is over. What comes subsequent is anyone’s guess, however my guess is there’s a very good probability we’re going right into a bear market the place it’s important to be far more selective than you ever have been. It’s important to have a look at the macro situations. And the macro situations have modified.

If we’re in what I imagine to be a stagflation interval, then it’s important to choose sure shares. You’ll be able to’t purchase what you have been shopping for two years in the past. And that’s what a whole lot of this era, they don’t get it as a result of they’ve by no means seen it. To them, it’s all inventory market crashes in 2008, inventory market crashes in 1999, it recovers two years later, after which the celebration’s on once more. Nicely, I feel that this time is totally different. That is my perception. I could also be unsuitable, however I feel we’re in for a bear market and a interval of stagflation.

Meb: Ian, any extra perception? , it’s humorous as a result of I didn’t publish this, however I used to be it the opposite day, concerning the size of time of what individuals assume the long term is, what they are saying it’s, after which how they behave. They behave on form of like that zero-to-three-year time horizon. They could say they’ve a longer-term time horizon, however they nearly by no means do. However we regularly ask like, “How lengthy do you suppose truly, like, shares may go with out hitting a brand new excessive in lots of many years?” I imply, within the U.S., in the event you take it again far sufficient into the 1800s, it’s like 50 years or one thing on an actual foundation. However in the event you go down an inventory, and listeners go do that, go take the 45-odd inventory markets all over the world, do it on a complete return foundation, so together with dividends, however look what number of have gone nowhere for 10 years to twenty years. Like, it isn’t an insignificant quantity. I could should go simply do the precise writing, however there’s some which can be the identical place they have been 10 years, 20 years in the past, simply not the U.S., market cap weighted. We’ll see the way it performs out, however battle is the norm, I feel is a neater option to say it. Ian, any ideas?

Ian: I can’t add to Frank’s view. I agree along with his view. In fact, I can’t bear in mind the 1929 crash like Frank can, however I feel we’re in for a interval of down inventory costs in a bear market, and it’ll last more than anybody expects. And so it’s going to be a special world than we’ve all had for the final 20 years, for positive.

Meb: All proper. Who desires to make a guess? We solely have 200 votes to this point, however we’ll put up the complete. It often will begin to condense. It’s fairly shut. What do you guys guess the share of Meb’s followers on Twitter that personal gold or miners? So based mostly within the U.S., a whole lot of skilled traders, but in addition I tilt a bit in direction of…

Frank: What number of followers?

Meb: A few hundred and one thing thousand, 100,000, however there’s solely been 200 votes this far.

Frank: Okay. My guess is 10% to fifteen%.

Meb: Okay.

Ian: I’d say the identical, 15%.

Meb: You guys will probably be astonished as I’m that 40% mentioned they personal gold or miners. I guess that comes down, and I guess possibly it’s simply all of the Canadians and Australians who should not on trip proper now or one thing, and so they’re all voting as a result of this appears manner excessive relative to what I might anticipate. As a result of the bizarre half is, I did this identical ballot and I requested about actual property, and nearly nobody mentioned they owned actual property. So there’s some form of dislocation right here. I don’t know what it’s, however possibly everybody’s simply saying as a result of they personal S&P Index, they find yourself proudly owning a couple of gold miners in there. I don’t know, however one thing is amiss. It appears excessive.

All proper. Nicely, we’re going to begin to wind down, guys. We’ve solely obtained in all probability 10 extra minutes to talk with you. As we take into consideration sort of the longer term and look out to the horizon, something we haven’t chatted about within the investing world, within the mining world, has obtained you significantly curious, anxious, excited, depressed, any broad emotion? Something that you simply’re desirous about, something that’s holding you up at night time, or placing you to sleep, that we haven’t talked about? Something on the mind?

Frank: I’m wondering what this entire crypto collapse goes to imply for the remainder of the market, the financial system usually. I don’t suppose the washout is completed but. It’s come off by two-thirds already, however I don’t suppose it’s over but. It may do what the dot-com shares did again in 1999. , by the point it was completed, they have been down 90%. So much went to zero. And so we haven’t had the entire washout of the crypto mania but. And if it does come, I’m wondering…I’m simply curious if there will probably be a knock-on impact, and if it actually will have an effect on the remainder of the housing market, inventory market, the financial system. That’s the query mark for me. I don’t know the reply, however that will fear me a bit.

Meb: Presumably, and that is laborious to quantify, however pondering by way of form of the wind and the sails of valuable metals, about how a lot consideration, significantly with the youthful crowd, has been diverted for these searching for form of a protected haven mindset of two crypto kind of autos that in any other case might have gone to valuable metals. And so in some ways, I’m wondering if that may very well be a possible catalyst for a bull publicity to the miners, presuming they don’t additionally go down 80%, 90%, however seemingly that will be a constructive. Man, the quantity of fraud and scams and simply horrible habits we’ve witnessed in the previous couple of years within the crypto house, actually, if not one black eye, it’s two.

Frank: I’m simply questioning whether or not they’re going to have any cash left to put money into gold or the rest. That’s what worries me as a result of I feel that a whole lot of that crypto crowd, the hardcore guys are taking place with the ship. They don’t care, they imagine. And so it’s not like they went, “Oh, whoops. We made a mistake, and time to change horses.” Clearly, the good merchants, and I had this debate a few 12 months in the past with somebody on this, an important debate on gold versus Bitcoin form of factor. And I used to be being advised by the particular person I used to be debating that every one the hedge funds and the good cash was going into Bitcoin, blah, blah. And I mentioned, “Guys, these are momentum gamers. The minute the momentum stops, they’re out and so they’re going to be using another asset class. They’re not maxis. They don’t care as a lot as you. You guys…”

However there’s a very giant proportion of that crypto inhabitants that’s holding on and going, “We don’t care. It’s taking place, finally, it’s going to go up and crypto’s going to avoid wasting the world.” And people are the oldsters which can be going to get fully, in my view, going to get fully worn out, and so they gained’t have any cash left to place it to one thing else. So I don’t know. This entire crypto factor is a very bizarre one and it’s…I don’t suppose we’ve ever seen something prefer it in our lifetimes, and we’ll by no means see it once more.

Meb: Ian, something that’s in your mind recently?

Ian: Nicely, the one factor, and I don’t know very a lot about it, however I’m watching with fascination because the world tries to get off of carbon fuels and get extra electrified and digitized. So subsequently that ought to be extremely good for copper, and you may learn an article a day on how we’re going to expire of copper any minute, and but over the previous three weeks, the value of copper has collapsed. I simply don’t know the way the lithium, and the cobalt, and the copper are all going to do as we attempt to electrify the world. I do not know how that’s going to get resolved, however there’s a huge disconnect available in the market proper now.

Meb: And the ag house too. I imply, you’ve seen, traditionally, a few of the ranges of the costs we’re at now, although they’ve come down, create a whole lot of geopolitical unrest and also you’re seeing that. So you might have like a twin, each ag and vitality, stressor. Clearly, a whole lot of it’s taking place in Europe. Final go-round, it was actually a whole lot of meals insecurity in Africa, Center East, Arab Spring. Hopefully, it resolves itself, however usually that results in toppling of governments and regimes and all the pieces else. However we had a current podcast visitor, Peter Zion, on, who had a a lot bleaker view for the autumn and sort of how that ag publicity might play out. So hopefully constructive, nevertheless it’s actually one thing that assets are much more entrance of thoughts than they have been when oil was buying and selling at unfavorable future values a couple of years in the past.

Frank: So as to add to the ag downside, you’ve obtained all this local weather change stuff that’s taking place, which is basically affecting agriculture all over the world. I wrote an article on this final 12 months on the consequences of local weather change on agriculture and agricultural output in behemoth international locations like Brazil, you understand? Whether or not they’re excessive heats, droughts, floods…I imply, they’re taking place locations the place this stuff shouldn’t be taking place, and so they’re actually killing…It’s weighing closely on agricultural output. Now you’ve added this entire Ukraine conflict state of affairs, which as we all know, the wheat provides from Ukraine and Russia rely for about 40% of world provides. And the place’s that…who’s going to undergo most? International locations in Africa, the Center East, these which have been reliant on these exports.

And I agree with you. I feel that’s one thing to be very anxious about as a result of, as I wrote not too long ago, we will all go right into a extreme recession. I can take away your iPhone and your automotive, you’ll reside. However I take away your meals, you’re going to behave otherwise. You’re going to do issues that you simply wouldn’t in any other case do. And that’s the place societies crumble. That’s the place you get the Arab Springs and different conditions. So I’d be very anxious about that too. And I simply hope it doesn’t occur as a result of it could be very tragic.

Meb: Gents, final query for you each. You’ll be able to have a second to consider it, nevertheless it’s a query we ask all of our visitors, and it may be good or unhealthy, however the query is framed, what’s your most memorable funding?

Frank: I’ve one, and it is a very precious lesson in timing markets or the failure to time markets. And when the dot-com bubble was taking place, I used to be trying round and I used to be telling everyone who listened to me that this was madness, that there was no foundation for the valuations of those tech shares, and that it will definitely would implode. And so I shorted, and I can’t bear in mind why I shorted this explicit tech inventory that was buying and selling on the NASDAQ, however I learn what it was, and it was nothing. It was based mostly on some future potential, possibly it will occur or that’ll occur, Venus will align with Mars, and all this stuff that to me have been mumbo-jumbo.

And also you had these giant funding banks, Wall Avenue funding banks, writing experiences with these loopy projections, going, “This…” So I began shorting it and I stored going up, and I stored getting margin calls. And I used to be going, “Okay, I can’t go for it.” So I stored placing up margin, placing up margin. The inventory went from $12 to $30 to $40 to $80. And I used to be going, “This could’t go on endlessly.” I finally bailed. And I feel I couldn’t…In any case, I misplaced a lot cash…I can’t bear in mind. I imply, it was $110, $120 a share. It went to $200, after which it went to zero. And I nonetheless misplaced some huge cash.

Meb: Shorting is so laborious. Markets can go bananas. I imply, the current examples final 12 months was with, and nonetheless ongoing, however a few of these meme shares that took down very giant quick sellers. The timing on shorting is tough, nevertheless it’s a very good lesson, and also you don’t overlook that one. I’ve had my expertise there. Ian, what do you bought?

Ian: My most memorable was at one level within the early ’90s, Robert Friedman was attempting to rent me and I wasn’t positive, and I used to be hesitant. And so he simply began throwing alternatives my manner. I lastly agreed to go and be a part of him. And as a part of that, he mentioned, “Nicely, I’ll make you a director of diamond fields.” And I’d by no means heard of diamond fields. And so I obtained inventory in diamond fields at 15 cents, I obtained choices at 18 cents. And in order that was nice. So the inventory made it to $5, and I believed I used to be a genius. So after all I offered it. I made sufficient cash to construct a waterfront home in Vancouver, however then the inventory went to $150. In order that’s certainly one of my most memorable investments.

Meb: We did a put up on this. I’m attempting to suppose when it was and the title of it, nevertheless it’s primarily speaking about easy methods to plan for funding outcomes. And the one which most individuals take into consideration is, okay, what occurs if this inventory begins to go down, or at what level do I promote if issues go poorly? However we regularly inform individuals, we are saying, “It’s important to…” and that is clearly a significantly better downside to have. “It’s important to mentally put together for a way are you going to deal with an funding that’s the reverse, that does very well?” So a 5-bagger, a 10-bagger, a 100-bagger. And most of the people by no means had these as a result of what occurs is that they promote after the 1-bagger. They, “Oh my God, I purchased this, it doubled. I purchased Aris, it doubled. I’m going to go purchase a brand new automotive. I’m going to go on trip, yadda, yadda.”

However the energy legal guidelines of investing the place you make some actually large wealth is each inventory that turns into a 10-bagger or a 100-bagger was as soon as a 1-bagger. And so there’s a whole lot of methods to consider that. I feel individuals don’t wish to suppose within the binary phrases of…they wish to suppose by way of in or out, however possibly simply promoting a bit may very well be one resolution to keep away from the emotional ache of remorse minimization there on the precise large winner. That’s nice, guys.

Nicely, look, fellas. I might like to preserve you all day, however all of us want to maneuver on. We’d like to have you ever again and watch what you guys are doing sooner or later. If individuals need to sort of sustain along with your firm, what your ideas, your writings, your farming merchandise you’re placing out, the place do they go? What are the perfect locations to maintain up with you guys?

Frank: I’ve obtained a weblog,, I write for the Toronto star each couple of weeks, I write a column on often macro points and different issues, and you may observe me on Twitter. That’s often the place you’ll get my messaging.

Ian: For me. I’m not on social media, I don’t write a column for anyone. You’ll have to only keep watch over bulletins for the varied corporations I’m concerned in to see what I’m as much as.

Meb: Go hike across the Canadian wilderness, discover you in a cabin. Excellent.

Ian: Precisely proper.

Meb: Gents, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to affix us right now.

Frank: Meb, that was nice. Nice interview. Thanks.

Ian: Yeah, Meb, thanks very a lot.

Meb: Podcast listeners, we’ll put up present notes to right now’s dialog at If you happen to love the present, in the event you hate it, shoot us suggestions at We like to learn the evaluations. Please overview us on iTunes and subscribe to the present wherever good podcasts are discovered. Thanks for listening, mates, and good investing.



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